Millennials, Gen Z, and Generational Anxiety

Talking about Self-Awareness and Anxiety (with Hello Monday’s Jessi Hempel)


MORRA AARONS-MELE: I’m Morra Aarons-Mele, and this is The Anxious Achiever. We look at stories from business leaders who have dealt with anxiety, depression, or other mental health challenges, how they fell down, how they picked themselves back up, and how they hope workplaces can change in the future.

I’m just old enough to marvel at how accomplished so many young people today are. The forethought, the effort, the drive. They do everything you’re supposed to do to accomplish your goals in life. Millennials now are the most-educated cohort in American history. And for many young people, it’s the season to start thinking about their future. But that future looks very different for those just graduating from college, or just setting out on a new job, buying a house, starting a family, than it did just a few months ago.

We reached out to listeners to get a sense of what they’re feeling right now, as the uncertainty swells and as they think about how this year might impact them for years ahead, their careers, financial stability, ability to get married, buy a house, start that family, and reach their dreams.

First, I spoke to Daria Forde, a young woman just graduating from Barnard College in New York with a computer science degree. Daria grew up without a lot of money in New York City, got a scholarship to Miss Porter’s for high school, and completed the Girls Who Code program on the path to a career in STEM. In short, she did everything right, but she doesn’t know what the future holds.

DARIA FORDE: I always knew that I wanted to go to college, because I saw education as a gateway to just better myself and achieve whatever the “American Dream” is, or what I thought it was when I was younger. So, I went away to boarding school when I was in high school, and I was able to get that opportunity through a program called the Oliver Scholars program, which helps minorities get into private school. I made sure that I did the best that I could and also just tried to be the best. Especially as a Black woman, I couldn’t really afford to be what I thought was average academically, and I think when I got to Barnard, it shifted away from being not mediocre academically to more making sure that I wasn’t mediocre professionally. And I knew that STEM equaled money.

In terms of my mental health, it was definitely a rollercoaster, trying to keep up with my classes while flying out to California for tech interviews. This past summer, I interned at Groupon as a product manager intern, and when I got back on campus, I found out that I had received a return offer to come back after graduation. There definitely was a moment during this time where I saw that a lot of the people at my company were being furloughed or laid off, and then I went on a Slack channel that was created for new grads who are entering at Groupon, and I saw that our recruiter wrote to us saying that they couldn’t guarantee our employment; however, they are very hopeful, and they’ll keep us posted within the next 30-60 days. And I was like, oh my gosh, 30-60 days? That’s 1-2 months. From there, I really kicked back into recruitment mode, and that was definitely just a traumatic experience in itself, just the possibility of not having financial security and stability after graduation.

I’m no longer in the limbo. As of two weeks ago, they sent out another message saying that our offers are secured, and they’re just pushing our start dates to October. My offer should be secure; however, in the back of my mind, I just know how we’re really not in control of anything. We might get to September, and there might be a second wave of COVID and more people who are being furloughed and laid off. The anxiety also comes from me really wanting to hit the ground running and feeling like I’ve hit the ground running in every environment that I’ve been in, whether it’s going to a boarding school or to a top college, or having great internship experiences, and not having the opportunity to do that right after graduation like I was expecting to have the opportunity to do.

MORRA AARONS-MELE: Now, those graduating in 2020 are no doubt facing monumental hurdles as they enter adulthood, but another cohort, Millennials, are now facing the second major economic hit in their adult lives. Many in this group, like the next voice you’ll hear, were graduating or just starting out in their careers when the Great Recession hit. Now, many had recovered, had a new life plan, got married, bought homes, were moving up into management, and were dreaming big. But they are now feeling the anxiety of another huge economic shock.

Cody Hoyt graduated from high school in 2003, and spent five years as a Marine, before working in the oil and gas industry, then going back, finishing his undergrad degree, and getting an MBA. Now, Cody works at a large public company. But he’s also uncertain about how the ground will shift. He sits with his anxiety about the future and whether the big goals he set for himself will ever be in his grasp, given the economy.

CODY HOYT: You know, for the longest time, I had this idea that I wanted to be this very successful person, and to me, it seemed like successful people were in business. I grew up in a small town in Pennsylvania as the middle child. So while, by a lot of accounts, I had a great childhood, one of the really serious things we dealt with was our mother passed away when I was 14. And once she passed away, my father was the caretaker in my family. He sort of created a culture in our home that I would consider obnoxiously masculine. And so, when it came time to think about post-high school, I had been kind of exposed to the military in a lot of ways. It was something that I was really interested in doing, but it was also this culture that I was raised in after my mother passed away that sort of pushed me in that direction.

After that, I chose to leave the military and go into the oil and gas business. At the time, the price of a barrel of oil was through the roof. It was $140 that summer, which was… if not the historic high, it was in that ballpark. Shortly after I joined, that $140-barrel price of oil quickly dropped down to, I think, in the $50 range, probably in that next year. So, all the riches I thought I was going to be making in the oil industry quickly evaporated within the first few months I was in business.

For me, it was this idea that, oh, Jesus, this is the first major failure I’ve had in my life. I left the oil business to go back to school and finish my undergrad degree. I just hoped that after I finished my undergrad and my MBA, if I was fortunate enough to have it work out the way I wanted to, that the economy would be in a drastically different place, and I would have a chance to sort of hit the reset button a little bit on my career.

When I look at it now, I think that it was the right decision, because what it’s given me is, it’s given me an opportunity to get myself into a position where I have a steady income, a really decent job. Now, I have the opportunity to look and say, “Okay, what else is out there? What else do I want to do?” And I have this really solid footing. When people see an MBA, they see somebody that’s successful. And so, for some of those doors that may have been closed otherwise, because I have those three letters there, people tend to recognize that and are open to maybe discussions that they wouldn’t have been otherwise.

I was fortunate enough to have an opportunity to sit down with a professional coach through my employer, and he asked me, he said, “Tell me what you want to be.” I said, “I want to be a CEO of a publicly traded company.” And he said, “Great. Tell me why.” And I said, “To prove that I have fulfilled my potential.” And then he asked a question I will never forget for as long as I live. He said, “Prove to who?” Until that moment, I had never even thought about, what is this idea of success? Why am I chasing so hard at this idea of success? That has totally shifted the landscape of how I view what I think I want my life to be and what I want to do with my career.

Right now, everything is stable, secure. I feel like the work I’m doing is important and meaningful with my employer, but that could change in a heartbeat. They could decide that we need to cut our staff by half, because things aren’t looking good. But then there’s the anxiety around, now, as I’m figuring out and thinking of what it is that my future career looks like, it seems like there are fewer options on the table. And then, I think the third way I’m feeling some anxiety just on the home front … My wife and I, we’re relatively newly married. We’re buying a house. We’re talking about having children in the near future, and how does everything that’s happening in the world affect that, from the pandemic that’s still in full effect in the world, to the economic situation that we’re facing?

MORRA AARONS-MELE: Now, I’m a Gen X-er. My generation is known for apathy and trying to figure out our path in life between two huge generations: Baby Boomers, who are older than us, and Millennials, who are younger. The U.S. GDP when Gen X-ers were in their 20s and 30s grew at twice the level it did for Millennials at the same age. Privileged people in Gen X caught the last wave of the days when most white-collar jobs offered health insurance and retirement funds.

I also believe, because there was no social media, no university pitch competitions, no obsession with entrepreneurship or creating the next big startup, no LinkedIn or TED Talks, we had less pressure to be awesome when we were starting out. The combination of less economic pressure and less social pressure meant we had more room to find our ways into our careers.

That’s just not true anymore, and the stories we just heard are, of course, two individuals at different stages of life, in different parts of the country. Many more people their age are suffering as well, many having lost jobs or failed to get one out of college. So, we also wanted to explore the collective impact of an event like this on a generation.

We turn now to Annie Lowrey, staff writer at The Atlantic. She recently wrote the piece, “Millennials Are The New Lost Generation,” and I spoke with her about the economic, psychological, and social impacts a major economic crisis can have.

Annie, I’d love it if you just give a rundown, for listeners, what kind of long-term impacts the last recession, the Great Recession of 2008 onward, had on different generations, but especially Millennials.

ANNIE LOWREY: Yeah. Recessions, as a general point, don’t hit all cohorts in the same way. They’re bad for everybody, but there are some ways in which they are particularly bad for young people, and we saw that happen with Millennials and the Great Recession, and we are likely seeing it with Gen Z-ers and the pandemic recession that we’re in right now.

Millennials graduated into the worst labor market since the 1930s, and so, they took large initial job losses. Their unemployment rates were very high, even compared to the overall unemployment rate, which peaked at about 10%, but for Millennials was, depending on where you were and your education, in some cases more like 30%.

MORRA AARONS-MELE: Oh my gosh.

ANNIE LOWREY: Yeah, bad. So, large initial job losses, earnings losses, and then those scars took a long time to fade. Actually, Millennials are still carrying them. Economic research indicates that graduating into a recession leads to these kind of big earnings losses at the beginning, and even two decades later, you still have earnings losses. And so, the economic term for this is hysteresis, and it’s sometimes described as labor market scarring. Basically, graduating into a recession leaves a scar. It takes a very long time to fade and, in some cases, doesn’t really fade for your whole lifetime. It’s sort of a permanent effect.

And so, then, there’s all these sort of second-order knock-on effects that happened because of just the bad timing that the Millennials ended up with. One is that they were really unable to buy homes or bought homes a lot later than Gen Z-ers or Baby Boomers did. So, even right now, for Millennials, their rate of home ownership is like eight percentage points lower than that compared to prior generations. That’s a huge loss.

They struggle to accumulate wealth, in part because they took on so much student loan debt, more than half a billion dollars for just the Millennials themselves, and in part because they had these sluggish earnings trajectories. They were slower to move out into single-family homes. They had fewer kids. They started fewer businesses because they didn’t have the financial capacity to. So, Millennials got dealt a pretty crummy hand, and we’re really worried, I’m really worried, that that’s going to happen to Gen Z, too.

MORRA AARONS-MELE: What do you think, just extrapolating, will be the effect of having back-to-back generations? You’ve got the Millennials, who now have hit a double whammy, and then Gen Z, who are graduating into a huge economic mess. What will be the effect of having back-to-back generations that have just been clobbered?

ANNIE LOWREY: It’s not good, and you’ve seen… I know you guys have talked about it, and we as a society have talked a lot about income inequality and wealth inequality becoming unbelievably predominant features of American economic life. And the truth is that wealth inequality and income inequality manifest themselves into a kind of age inequality, also. So, Baby Boomers experience really different financial conditions than younger people did. They had a really big leg up. They were in their peak earning years during times when, even with recessions, the tide was lifting all boats. And younger folks, they haven’t benefited in that same way, and I think that that is going to have a lot of effects, just in terms of our understanding of who the American economy works for and who it doesn’t.

One sort of interesting strand to draw out of this is that having a recession happen during your formative years, which happened for both Millennials and Gen Z-ers, it tends to decrease your confidence in public institutions, like Congress, but it actually tends to increase your social solidarity, so your support for redistributive government programs, like Social Security and Food Stamps. I think that is actually a really important part of the kind of leftward drift that we’ve seen among young people, that they’re like, “Man, we need a social solution, a societal solution, to these problems, because the economy isn’t working for us, and we’re making up this giant precariat, despite having really done everything right and everything that we were told to do.”

MORRA AARONS-MELE: I mean, that’s the thing, right? It’s interesting, because of course, the stereotype is that Millennials and then Gen Z are so entitled, they feel all their feelings, and then everyone just constantly hovers all over them. But my sense, as a Gen X-er, is that, certainly the two younger people that we hear from today on the show, Cody and Daria, they could not have done more to make themselves seem perfect on paper. Their drive, checking the boxes of ambition that I see among Millennials and Gen Z who are professionally driven, blows me away, as a sort of lackadaisical Gen X-er who just drifted and found her way into success because it was easy. That’s got to create a very emotional disconnect for these people who have done everything right and yet are totally screwed by the system and the American Dream of raising up a rung in the ladder.

ANNIE LOWREY: Absolutely. I find it frankly offensive when you see these arguments about how this is Millennials’ entitled attitude, and their avocado toast, and they expect too much in the workplace, yada, yada, yada. Individual level explanations, explanations for what has happened to this cohort that rest on some sort of intrinsic emotional factors within the cohort, are just ridiculous.

MORRA AARONS-MELE: Right.

ANNIE LOWREY: Millennials didn’t get anything handed to them, and they did everything kind of right, right? They were told that the path to the middle class, to security, is through education. And so, they’re the most educated cohort in American history, and what do they get for that? They get a lot of student loans, and they get suppressed wages and the inability to accumulate wealth, right? This is a cohort that wasn’t taking drugs like the Gen X-ers.

MORRA AARONS-MELE: I did.

ANNIE LOWREY: Yeah. This was a cohort that delayed having children. There’s also really compelling economic research that shows that in order to make up for initial earnings losses, you have to switch jobs, because big raises don’t tend to come from staying in the same job and advancing. They come from moving between companies. And that’s another thing that always bothers me in the kind of Millennial, like, “They’re just job hopping.” And it’s like, well, maybe they’re doing that because they need to make more money. So, that’s another part of it.

And I suppose that there’s this kind of similar, now, “Okay, Boomer” attitude about how the Boomers ruined everything, which I think is in some ways also overplayed. But, yeah, this is not a problem that has to do with choices Millennials made. It has to do with the structures that they’re operating in.

MORRA AARONS-MELE: What about innovation? I think about that, too. I think, I wonder if the cost of not trusting institutions and financial systems, and having so little stability stifles … that’s a negative word … changes your attitude towards wanting to go out and innovate and take risks and start businesses, in favor of seeking safety. I mean, do we know anything about that?

ANNIE LOWREY: We know that the people who got to become entrepreneurs often are people from high-income backgrounds, because they have that kind of parental safety net. Maybe they have less student debt. Maybe they just know that the worst thing that can happen is that they have to move home. And maybe, also, they get loans from their parents and their parents’ friends to start their business, or a credit card that some people cosign for them.

MORRA AARONS-MELE: Right, friends and family.

ANNIE LOWREY: Exactly. And so, that means to me that actually, having more family security, a bigger middle class, higher net worths for middle income families, would actually really help with entrepreneurship. We could say societally that we want everybody to have that to fall back on. And there are policies that can get us there.

MORRA AARONS-MELE: Are there other social or psychological effects you’re thinking about that we may see coming out of the Great Recession and, of course now, the unknown size recession/depression of the pandemic?

ANNIE LOWREY: There are really interesting studies of kids who grew up in the Great Depression. And again, just, recessions are bad. They’re bad for health. They’re bad for income. They’re just bad, bad, bad for everybody. And that’s why it’s such an urgent public policy concern to make sure that they’re as short and as mild as possible. But insofar as there are interesting silver linings that come out of them, I think that social solidarity is one of them. There’s interesting studies of kids who grew up in the Depression that show, in some cases, it inculcated a lot of grit. I’ve always been interested in that, to what extent some people come out with this additional resilience.

But it’s hard, right? We know that recessions even have intergenerational effects. So, the children of kids who experienced a recession in their formative years have lower earnings than people who missed that recession just slightly, which I always find kind of crazy. And it just makes it so urgent to try to fix these things and to try to make sure that the safety net is working for people.

MORRA AARONS-MELE: I want to ask you specifically about the emotional and psychological impact of debt, because I think that is something that, I know personally, induces a kind of anxiety that lack of forward just doesn’t, because debt literally hangs over you. It follows you. You can’t escape it. It can feel insurmountable. What role is the burden of debt going to play, both psychologically and financially, on people under 40 today?

ANNIE LOWREY: We are running this grand experiment on the psychology of debt in young people. So, again, the message was, “Go to school, and it’s going to lead to these income and wealth accumulation benefits. It’s all going to work out for you.” And so, young people, starting in the ’80s and ’90s, they just started taking on more debt to go to school. Their families took on more debt.

And the financial part of it, in a lot of cases, didn’t actually work out that well. It is true that there’s a huge earnings premium associated with going to college, but it’s now gotten so expensive, and in some cases, earnings trajectories have been cruddy enough that the benefit isn’t that big, and if you look at young Black folks, there used to be a huge wealth benefit, in terms of going to college, and now there’s almost none. It’s so expensive to go, and accumulating wealth as a younger person has become so challenging and difficult. You spend $25,000, $30,000 going to school, and the math doesn’t always work out very well.

And in terms of the psychology, I think that we, in some ways, sort of underrated the emotional effects of having this additional bill to pay for decades on end and how fraught that makes your financial decision-making. So, even if a personal finance expert could look and say, “Hey, the math worked out for you, this is better,” it’s that psychology of, “Man, I need to pay my rent, and it’s really costly, and I’ve got to pay my kids’ childcare, and it’s really costly, and also, I’m still paying $400 or $600 a month on my student loans.” You look at surveys, and it’s just so burdensome for people, and I feel like that’s actually a really underrated part of this, the fact that from the outset of your adult life, you’re just saddled with this. You feel like you’re constantly spooning water out of the boat.

MORRA AARONS-MELE: Well, I think that’s right, and humans being humans, we always, I think, intrinsically think the future will be better, and so we have that sense, thank God, that opportunity might just be around the corner, so that, like you said, even if you’re paying a ton of money for childcare now, you can see it as an investment in future growth. But debt closes off the part of your brain, in a way, that allows you to feel creative and free, and innovative, and look ahead to what’s big. It literally, I think, almost creates a trauma, because when you think about an adventure in your career, you’re triggered by that feeling of, “Oh my gosh, but I owe, and I have to make that every month.”

ANNIE LOWREY: Absolutely, and it really weighs on you psychologically. I would be really interested to know how it reduced people’s risk-taking, right? Maybe I’m not going to go start that podcast, or begin a business, or quit my jobs and do this thing that I’ve always wanted to do, education, or in business, or whatever it might be, because you know that that bill is just endlessly due.

MORRA AARONS-MELE: I wanted to ask a question, going back to the value of college, if you see a sort of inflation in the need to have credentials in order to make it up. I’m thinking of a study that was done last year by Forte Foundation, which looked at the value of an MBA. I was always raised that if you had an MBA, you were golden, right? It was an investment, it was expensive, but wow. But what they found is that the future earnings potential of MBAs has shrunk. It’s, of course, surprise, surprise, biggest for white men. It’s low for African Americans of both genders. It’s actually sort of net neutral for women, white women especially, because … I think of dropping out of the workforce, but it does strike me that that gap is narrowing, and the value is less. We know the value of getting a law degree or a medical degree is less because of debt, because of lower than expected earnings.

But again, I think that 20 years ago … my mother would always say this, “When I grew up, a B.A. was all you needed, and now, you need a doctorate to be a physical therapist, an occupational therapist.” What’s that inflation going to cost us, in terms of credentialing?

ANNIE LOWREY: This kind of credentialism has all sorts of terrible downsides. First of all, I think still getting an advanced degree, at least on paper, for most people, on average, really, really helps. And we have seen stratification, in terms of income, on the basis of education, because we’ve seen the erosion, the loss of these kinds of jobs. There are just fewer of them, particularly in manufacturing, that kind of thing, where you don’t need a college degree, but it’s a stable, middle class job.

We especially see the kind of bad effect of this sort of credentialism when you have a recession and a really bad labor market. Employers, basically, have too many people to pick from for individual jobs when they’re hiring, and so they do this kind of inflation where they say, “For this job, we’ve decided now that you need a Master’s, not just a B.A.” Or you need a B.A., not just a GED. And in that way, they’re kind of winnowing their pool down, and this is a really harmful, hurtful thing in the economy, and you can see it in lots of ways.

Again, this is one reason that it’s just so important for the country to get to full employment and stay there, because it takes a long time for income gains to reach folks who are lower down the income ladder. This is something we saw after the last recession, and it’s going to be really important going forward.

MORRA AARONS-MELE: I want to talk about the media for a second. You’re a member of the media. What do you think the media is doing right about covering the generational financial crises now, and what could they do in order to help craft a public narrative that is helpful, both for job seekers and employers? What is the role of the media in all of this?

ANNIE LOWREY: It’s such a great question, and it’s coming during this time when we are seeing this wonderful explosion and creation of media, where the barrier to entry is really low … So, RIP blogs, but it’s been so great to see podcasting explode as a phenomenon. I think Twitter has been terrible for humanity, but I do actually think it’s been good for news consumption, maybe. And we’re in this crisis of just the number of news outlets collapsing, and the number of reporters … The Atlantic itself went through really painful layoffs last week. It was a structural crisis.

I’m totally with you that narrativization is such a dangerous thing. If we were talking 10 years ago, this narrative that the Millennials were lazy basement dwellers was becoming really predominant, and it was really hurtful.

MORRA AARONS-MELE: Or obsessed with starting apps that had little society value, right? That was another narrative.

ANNIE LOWREY: Yeah. Another narrative that slightly drives me crazy, and where I do think that the media constantly gets it wrong, is that there’s this kind of, how do you put it? There’s this real fetishization of garage tech startups, when really, most entrepreneurship and small business creation in the United States … it’s not primarily tech and apps and stuff, right? It’s people setting up small law offices or starting nail salons. It’s much less sexy and exciting, but it’s still really important, and I think we kind of constantly flog that one.

And I think that you’re right that there’s just this total fetishization of, especially, Silicon Valley, and everything is getting disrupted, and everything’s changing, and this inability to see tech for what it was, which was just another industry acting in its own self-interest and selling this narrative about itself.

MORRA AARONS-MELE: Dominated by white men, who kept money among white men.

ANNIE LOWREY: Yeah, totally. And that they’re all monopolists, who now do a lot of lobbying in Washington. And I always felt that if you just treated … if you replaced tech with oil and gas, would you get the same gasping media coverage about all these geniuses who are disrupting and changing the whole world? And so, yeah, I’m with you that that kind of clear-headedness … And I get that there’s all this social psychology about people wanting new things, and they want heroes, and the media is creating these. Anyway, I wish I were clear-eyed enough to know what we are just totally messing the story up on now. I try, but I’m not sure right now.

MORRA AARONS-MELE: Well, I think most journalists are just trying to keep their jobs.

ANNIE LOWREY: Yeah, totally.

MORRA AARONS-MELE: My husband always cites the statistic that the steel industry has actually kept many more jobs. Journalists have lost about five times more jobs than the steel industry over the past 20 years, but we never talk about that. It’s funny, though, Cody, who is part of this episode … I heard in his voice a real … almost grief, because he’s in corporate America, and I think he is of the entrepreneurship porn generation and feels like he’s missing a benchmark, in a way, by not blazing that trail of glory.

ANNIE LOWREY: Yeah. I think that that sense of loss is really palpable and also the way in which it’s just become really hard to do, right? We are seeing this declining entrepreneurship rate across the whole of the economy. Again, this is a structural thing, and I don’t think we even entirely understand it, but it’s so amazing to see that reflected in an individual who has this yearning, right, to do it.

MORRA AARONS-MELE: And who did everything right.

ANNIE LOWREY: Exactly.

MORRA AARONS-MELE: Served in the military, got an MBA. It’s just, I think that saying it’s structural is the key. It’s not Individual X’s fault. It’s not your fault that you’re not Mark Zuckerberg, right? There are structural forces. I hear you saying that.

ANNIE LOWREY: Absolutely, and I imagine that it’s … I never went to business school myself, but I imagine that that pressure to do it yourself is really prevalent in business school.

MORRA AARONS-MELE: Oh, beyond.

ANNIE LOWREY: Where certain folks I know who have gone or who teach at that, there’s all this emphasis on the new and the transformative and, as you point out, not on the creating from within, or realizing that this has gotten a lot harder. And that there’s deep financial reasons, both at the household level and in terms of corporate financing, why that’s true.

MORRA AARONS-MELE: Well, Annie Lowrey, I want to thank you so much for your work and for your time today.

ANNIE LOWREY: Thank you so much for having me.

MORRA AARONS-MELE: And before we go, I wanted to leave you all with a few last thoughts from the voices you heard at the top of the show, Cody and Daria, because even with this anxiety and an unknown future, these generations still have a lot of hope.

DARIA FORD: In the middle or end of March, I would tell you that I feel completely insecure, and that’s because one of the things that I didn’t have under my belt was a college degree. But I think now that I graduated on Monday, I feel secure. In terms of what I’m doing before I start at Groupon in October, I’m going to be an instructor at Girls Who Code for their summer immersion program, and that’s definitely something that I’m looking forward to.

CODY HOYT: For me to be anxious about something and say I don’t know what I want to do with the next 10, 15 years of my career, I don’t know what my career might look like, what my goals are, I don’t want people to see that, because that starts to peel away some of the idea of, “This person’s successful, and this person is a strong leader,” or whatever. And so, as I get a little bit older and hopefully a little bit wiser as time goes, I’ve learned that being vulnerable is okay. It’s taken a lot of pressure off my shoulders, just realizing that we all kind of deal with the same sorts of anxieties in the world.

MORRA AARONS-MELE: That’s it for this week’s show. If you like The Anxious Achiever, please be sure to subscribe and submit a review at Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you have an idea for the show or want to tell us your story, you can drop us a note at AnxiousAchiever@gmail.com, send me a tweet @morraam, or drop me a message on LinkedIn.

Special thanks to the team at Harvard Business Review, and this week to Amanda Kersey. Thanks to my amazing producer, Mary Dooe, Anne Saini, Colin Howarth, Adam Buchholz, and the team at HBR. And our music, if you like it, is from Signal Sounds NYC.

From the HBR Presents network, I’m Morra Aarons-Mele, and this is The Anxious Achiever.

 



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